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perma speedballing
#1
Hello everybody ,

I would like to reduce my tolerance to stims and avoid addiction by varying the stims I use, and even better combining them with a sedative or tranquilizer - again, whilst minimising tolerance and avoiding addiction. Does anybody have any thoughts on this - perhaps alternating between drugs that target different receptors?

Thanks
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#2
It seems unlikely to work. Stimulants, in general, work by increasing dopamine (either through release of dopamine or dopamine-reuptake inhibition), which is a key neurotransmitter involved in addiction. i.e. Switching between drugs with similar effects probably won't reduce tolerance or avoid addiction because the underlying mechanisms are very similar. Similarly, sedatives don't work in opposition to this dopaminergic system (benzodiazepines also have a downstream effect on dopaminergic neurons), so there's no reason that taking sedatives at the same time as stimulants would achieve anything other than enhancing the addictive properties of sedative drugs.
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#3
(24-05-2018, 05:40 AM)niamh Wrote: It seems unlikely to work. Stimulants, in general, work by increasing dopamine (either through release of dopamine or dopamine-reuptake inhibition), which is a key neurotransmitter involved in addiction. i.e. Switching between drugs with similar effects probably won't reduce tolerance or avoid addiction because the underlying mechanisms are very similar. Similarly, sedatives don't work in opposition to this dopaminergic system (benzodiazepines also have a downstream effect on dopaminergic neurons), so there's no reason that taking sedatives at the same time as stimulants would achieve anything other than enhancing the addictive properties of sedative drugs.

Thanks for your reply. 

Are there no stimulants that induce wakefulness by distinct means, therefore avoiding cross tolerance? 

Currently I understand that Modafinil works by increasing dopamine, histamine and orexin activity. Amphetamines by increasing dopamine, serotonin and norepinephrine activity. So I would expect partial cross-tolerance - but better to alternate between the two then use one continuously?
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#4
Hi Sharon. Amphetamines are not maintainable and sooner or later will lead to a crash; by which I mean excessive wakefulness inevitably leads to catch-up sleep. 

Amphetamines tend to be a lot stronger than modafinil/adrafinil (hydrafinil is next to useless). Modafinil, if taken correctly early in the day, is maintainable. But the effects are likely to be fairly unspectacular after recent amphetamine use. 

Variation, of course, is always a good idea. 

The goal of continually being 'up' unless one has taken chemical steps to get oneself 'down', i.e. at night, then rinse and repeat, isn't attainable (perhaps unfortunately) . Sooner or later, the body begins to insist on returning to baseline, and if this insistence is ignored by the mind, the body will take matters into its own hands and force the issue.

We only have finite reserves of the resources involved and the only way to reduce tolerance is abstinence. The point at which this has to occur may be delayed slightly by varying the stimulants taken, but what gets used by the body whilst stimulated, i.e. physical and nervous energy which can only be replenished by good food and proper sleep, is common to all stimulants, be they caffeine, one of the xxxfinils, racetams, amphetamines, bright sunlight, someone knocking your front door in etc, regardless of the precise neurotransmitters they happen to hit.

In my own experience, addiction to stimulants tends to be (largely though not exclusively) psychological and is based on the enjoyment of personal focus, motivation, energy and general getting-stuff-done. These effects tend to be what addicts us, regardless of the mechanisms of how we get there, which is not to ignore any accompanying physical issues.

In a nutshell sweets, of whatever kind, are best used as treats. And to appreciate treats, you have to spend periods without them.
'The trouble is, we think we have time."
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#5
(05-06-2018, 06:55 AM)AiwassATeenageKeyframe Wrote: Hi Sharon. Amphetamines are not maintainable and sooner or later will lead to a crash; by which I mean excessive wakefulness inevitably leads to catch-up sleep. 

Amphetamines tend to be a lot stronger than modafinil/adrafinil (hydrafinil is next to useless). Modafinil, if taken correctly early in the day, is maintainable. But the effects are likely to be fairly unspectacular after recent amphetamine use. 

Variation, of course, is always a good idea. 

The goal of continually being 'up' unless one has taken chemical steps to get oneself 'down', i.e. at night, then rinse and repeat, isn't attainable (perhaps unfortunately) . Sooner or later, the body begins to insist on returning to baseline, and if this insistence is ignored by the mind, the body will take matters into its own hands and force the issue.

We only have finite reserves of the resources involved and the only way to reduce tolerance is abstinence. The point at which this has to occur may be delayed slightly by varying the stimulants taken, but what gets used by the body whilst stimulated, i.e. physical and nervous energy which can only be replenished by good food and proper sleep, is common to all stimulants, be they caffeine, one of the xxxfinils, racetams, amphetamines, bright sunlight, someone knocking your front door in etc, regardless of the precise neurotransmitters they happen to hit.

In my own experience, addiction to stimulants tends to be (largely though not exclusively) psychological and is based on the enjoyment of personal focus, motivation, energy and general getting-stuff-done. These effects tend to be what addicts us, regardless of the mechanisms of how we get there, which is not to ignore any accompanying physical issues.

In a nutshell sweets, of whatever kind, are best used as treats. And to appreciate treats, you have to spend periods without them.

Thanks for your input, Aiwass. I think low level amphetamine use is maintainable - many adhd forum users report 10 years + of what they consider successful amphetamine medicating. It's common advice to take a couple of days off a week, which seems like good advice to me. Probably for neuro regeneration (restoring dopamine levels, maybe other things). Amphetamines and sleep seem easier to me that modafinil and sleep - I just got my first good nights sleep after modafinil (about 15 doses in), with impressive sleep disruption on previous occasions. I get best results at the upper end of light (where I can forget I am drugged when otherwise engaged - e.g. in conversation), maybe 40mg (though I'm tempted to drop to more like 30mg), but have had lucid dreams bordering psychotic experiences (the most insane experiences, with real confusion over what's real and what isn't, at times accepting the absurdity as truth - multi coloured fish climbing the walls, no doubt... way beyond cheese before bed!). I've felt safe and happy with these berzerk experiences as I seemed to know I wasn't getting up to drive in a delerious condition or do anything silly like that, but I woke consistently just 1-2 hours after getting to sleep needing to pee, got to sleep again, wake 2-3 hours later, can't sleep... 1-4 hours sleep, total. Yet with stimming I don't feel the detrimental effects of such little sleep... generally I seem fine with 4 hours x2 then a solid 8 and repeat, though I'd much rather keep a consistent 8. I've been getting maybe 6 hours sleep average on daily amphetamines, which I've been doing for 1.5 years now. Seems to be going fine. Dose dependent duration makes foguring out amphetamine dosing schedule tricky, but I think I've really nailed it with 10mg in the morning and 10mg four hours later, no later than 1pm. It wears down at 10pm and I'm tired by 11-12. even substantial flubromazolam twice a week (.5mg) doesn't seem to have caused any problems, though now I take much less (.125mg) twice. I wonder if I'd be ok with .125mg x3 a week? But I don't want to push my luck. I might do better with something with a shorter half-life.
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#6
Hi Sharon. My apologies, I see you're further down the road than I thought. The only thing I can possibly suggest in order to realise your goal of reduced tolerance is reduced intake, so your drop to 30mg suggestion makes sense. I personally find modafinil, and especially armodafinil (which I greatly prefer) exceptionally long-legged and if not taken prior to 10am they inevitably induce a largely fitful sleep.

Whilst they do sound visually interesting and even fun, experiences where multicoloured fish are climbing the walls and fantasy and reality grow indistinguishable probably aren't widely-recognised symptoms of apex psychic tuning, albeit you feel safe and happy throughout. Any drop in amphetamine use would presumably improve sleep architecture and potentially limit the need for benzos.

I wouldn't increase benzo use to thrice a week, even at the lower dose. Frequency of use tends to trump quantity when it comes to issues, which is not to ignore dosage. Frankly, I'd be more focussed on getting the speed cut down to a point where the benzos weren't so frequently necessary. Then perhaps move to a more recreational approach with both substances: amphetamines taken as little as possible in order to not need sedatives during the week, with the option of fluffy mental pillows and a creativity boost on days starting with an 'S'. Assuming I was eating properly, it would be the benzos that I addressed first. But you have the experience and know what you need at this point. But I'm sure you know the upper/downer dance can be a vicious cycle.

I repped you for not feeling patronised by what I posted :-)
'The trouble is, we think we have time."
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#7
I think stims just have extended longevity on me, as modafinil at 7am will result in bazonk sleep even at 1am. Vitamin c (1g) and cranberry juice help void the amphetamines no doubt, but i'm not so sure about the modafinil - the moda seems to become especially diuretic late stage, possibly explaining the first awakening. The vitamin c and cranberry are diuretic, so I might need to ensure I get them 2 hours before bed (or something like that) - maybe I can void enough drug and resolve bladder-induced sleep disruption by draining myself earlier on in the evening? It seems a shame that Modafinil disrupts my sleep so badly as I really get on with it, and it's orexin/histamine/dopamine action makes me think it could help to avoid amphetamine tolerance. I'm intrigued by armodafinil, but if it's even longer legged than modafinil it would be even more innapropriate for me - I've convinced myself that all-nighters are a bad idea for me by f**king myself up with them repeatedly.
I don't use benzos to force sleep after stims, since I restrict my dosing to avoid sleep interference - I've got a ton of theanine though, I might try that as a sleep aid. My interest in benzos (or other sedatives/tranquilisers) was in active combination (same/near time of administration) to take the edge off the stims - a true speedball. The combination can be god tier, especially for the anxious adhd type. Perma-speedballing is a lofty/distant notion that might never come to be, and I don't wish to rush into it. Maximising the benefit of the combo (time spent speedballing + quality/function of effects - negatives = optimal) is the aim.
I have been thinking of reducing my stim usage - I haven't researched tolerance much but might have to. ADHD folk are saying tolerance to dopaminergic effects o f amphetamines results from extended use, but wakefulness and focus does not diminish at therapeutic dose range (adrenergic action?). I'm pretty psychologically addicted atm, and dependent - I become depressed/lethargic when I cease use, and why stop when I could just dose again? and why stick to the devised taper dose when one (or two) more might produce far greater results... yet I don't think they are doing for me what they once did. 1 year with 2 days off a week went consistently, whilst ~3 months of solid dosing seems to have eventually resulted in a tolerance and diminished effects. I found it so easy to take days off last year, but now... I think I've just permitted myself constant use and find it hard to take the privilege back. Maybe I should. I also wonder how much better I might do if I nominated 3 days a week speed days, and stayed clean the rest of the time.
'They' might not regard indistinguishably real polychrome aquaforms ascending vertical enclosure structures as 'apex psychic tuning', but 'they' are entitled to their own opinions.
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