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benzo wds
#1
yesterday i took 1.5g ([email protected] [email protected]) phenibut HCL 

usually leave 6/7 days between doses, however i took Baclofen 40mg on Tue last resulting in excellent sleep.

I took RC benzos from Monday 29th Aug Pyrazolam 1mg and Etizalom 1mg and a mixture of meclo/dicla/eti 4 days out of the week going back from the 29th also had a few pregabalin 75mgs (7 x 75mg over the same week total), not silly doses, roughly same as listed.

why am i being specific? 

because after consuming the phenibut yesterday i couldnt sleep, i also took activated charcoal (2 capsules in the afternoon and the previous day same) i could feel the very familar phenibut feeling in my head but i was wide awake, i couldnt believe it. I was thinking maybe the charcoal had affected the phenibut which im sure it did but i could feel the drug. Over the awake period i was attempting to work out what was causing me to be wide awake, i thought maybe this was benzo wd? but nearly a week later? is that possible. Anyway by 3.00 i got fed up of listening to my gf sleeping so i reluctantly took an eti 1.2mg from CT, about 15 mins later fell asleep next thing its 7.00

can benzos the ones i mention take nearly a week to cause wds or another thought i had was these are all gaba drugs so some cross addiction going on here, would  appreciate some feedfback from peeps in the know

btw this isnt a typical week, most weeks i manage to keep benzos a week apart, same for phenibut with a handful of pregabalin over the week too.
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#2
No you cannot get benzo withdrawal a week late. Not even from benzos with very long half-lives like diazepam.

But it does sound like you're rotating a lot of different GABAergic drugs and they're all contributing to GABA downregulation even though they hit different receptors. If you're worried about it, lay off them all for a bit.

Why are you taking activated charcoal, though? Isn't that used for overdoses?
Who the fuck is Psychoactive Substances Bill and why is he taking all my drugs?
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#3
yeah my thoughts entirely on the GABAergic drugs i take. Thank fuck i write it all down with times as well. Although that has gone by the wayside now and then. 

the charcoal - been detoxing (yeah i know sounds crazy after reading about my activities but i like to attempt to strike a balance) thought i would speed things up - been a long term chronic pain sufferer (part of the reason i started taking RC's) 

will think twice about charcoal in the future, the other thing i forgot to mention is the bag the phenibut is in, the seal at the top doesnt clip together anymore so i bent it over with a clip, placed that in another plastic bag with an oxygen absorber thingy and sealed that (probably been in the bag like that for over a year), i thought maybe some air has changed the chemical composition (amazing what one thinks about when staring at the curtains) thus producing the effect of keeping me awake?
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#4
I don't think phenibut is that delicate of a chemical, I've kept it stored for about a year without it losing potency in the past. Likely just tolerance. The hypnotic effects of GABAergics are always the first to disappear as tolerance builds.
Who the fuck is Psychoactive Substances Bill and why is he taking all my drugs?
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#5
Charcoal issue aside, I always found phenibut to be rather unpredictable. Probably why it's been touted for everything, from sleep to a nootropic to a bodybuilding supplement. It's a dopamine agonist and increases GABA whilst also suppressing phenethylamine. I think lower doses are better for relaxation/hypnotic effects.
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#6
interesting, first time in 2 years that when taken alone (phenibut) it has had this effect, but like its all ready been mentioned - im taking other gabaergic drugs so difficult to tell whats doing what, anyway today gonna take small dose of pyrazolam (got a battery of tests in hospital which i hate) then have a weeks break from any gaba drugs
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#7
I've taken Phenibut in doses from 2g, 4g (my sweet spot - not that I recommend it), and as much as 8g in one day although not in one dose. The latter two may be dangerously high doses for non tolerant individuals so please please do not look at that as typical although I think Phenibut generally is a relatively benign drug so far as overdoses go.

Anyway, 2g these days is barely perceivable but takes a slight edge off the world and provides a slight mood boost. Sleep is a bit easier and more refreshing.

4g, which is my sweet spot as mentioned before, gives me a reasonable energy buzz, anxiolysis and a massive mood boost. I've only ever done it on nights out/before meeting up with girls so I couldn't say how useful it is at this dose to get to sleep as I would generally go to sleep past 4am out of exhaustion anyway.

8g, which was basically dosed over the course of 6-7 hours, dilated my pupils to FUCK and I felt immense head pressure and ridiculous amounts of energy. Highly reckless, I think the dopaminergic activity overtook the sedative effects of Phenibut at this point and I didn't end up going to sleep until 6am the next morning - I didn't even try so I suppose it may have been possible but I doubt it.

By the way, I used to take it once every two weeks on average and my tolerance barely moved much even after a 4-5 month break after a brief 2 week addiction with the stuff at the beginning of using it. I don't know why Phenibut seems to cause some sort of permanent tolerance, I'm fairly well versed in basic neuroscience although I do not profess to be any sort of expert but there is no real explanation that I can find out there other than that the abuse/dependency caused permanent alterations to subreceptor composition. Don't get me wrong, tolerance does drop but there are likewise loads of cases of people who had addictions who even after 1 year breaks barely get high at the previously sane doses that you do when you begin. This isn't just novelty either, this is literally not feeling anything at 2g after a 4-5 month break whereas 2g would be literally up there with one of the nicest, most enjoyable experiences of my life the first time/first 5-6 times.

Anyway I digress, good luck with getting some better sleep and your plan to avoid GABAergics. May I add one final thing - more recent research shows Phenibut to be primarily a gabapentinoid rather than a GABAb agonist in it's primary receptor affinities. This means it is cross tolerant with gabapentin and pregabalin, and therefore more caution should be taken if you are cycling between phenibut, gabapentin/pregabalin and that dependency is more likely.

Kinda scary that we all took Phenibut in the beginning believing it to be a pure GABAb agonist with less of the pitfalls of GABAa agonists/allosteric modulators and it turns out to have a completely different primary mode of action. Just checked and even Wikipedia appears to have updated its page on it now!

Originally thought to act as a selective GABAB receptor agonist, phenibut has since been found to act preferentially as a blocker of α2δ subunit-containing voltage-gated calcium channels, similarly to gabapentin and pregabalin.[9][10] As such, by definition, phenibut is a gabapentinoid.[11][12]
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#8
I wish phenibut was prescribed instead of pregabalin I have to say. It's much better, pregabalin is shite.

It's not much of a surprise they have similar mechanism of action though. Look at their chemical structures, they are almost identical. One small difference in chemical structure between phenibut and pregabalin.
Who the fuck is Psychoactive Substances Bill and why is he taking all my drugs?
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#9
Still think its sleep enhancing effects are down to its GABAb activity rather than Calcium channel blocking, Baclofen has virtually no Calcium blocking activity yet is very good at sedation. Also a fair percentage of users report no Dopaminergic activity so its acting slightly differently on different individuals. I started at 1.5G and despite virtually weekly use since tolerance has rose to only 2.5G to gain the initial feeling, so that too is probably variable to a greater or lesser degree. I do find a fortnight off does enable me to reduce to 2G with an enhanced effect but with a 6-7 day gap between doses tolerance rises only very slowly.

Wouldn't like to be taking Pregabalin daily, i feel my health would soon suffer but as an occasional recreational treat very little touches it in the 'out of it' stakes.
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#10
(08-09-2016, 08:24 PM)acetlyblue Wrote: Still think its sleep enhancing effects are down to its GABAb activity rather than Calcium channel blocking, Baclofen has virtually no Calcium blocking activity yet is very good at sedation. Also a fair percentage of users report no Dopaminergic activity so its acting slightly differently on different individuals. I started at 1.5G and despite virtually weekly use since tolerance has rose to only 2.5G to gain the initial feeling, so that too is probably variable to a greater or lesser degree. I do find a fortnight off does enable me to reduce to 2G with an enhanced effect but with a 6-7 day gap between doses tolerance rises only very slowly.

Wouldn't like to be taking Pregabalin daily, i feel my health would soon suffer but as an occasional recreational treat very little touches it in the 'out of it' stakes.

Quite probable, it still has affinity for GABAb but 10x as much activity in terms of calcium channel blocking.

What is very interesting is that Baclofen has blocking effects on dopamine firing which is why it is implicated in reducing cravings in drugs which primarily are reinforced via dopaminergic action such as cocaine and nicotine, although from the papers i read it does not appear to be earth shattering in the way that naltrexone may one day prove to be for functional alcoholics (if it hasn't already? 78% success rate according to recent studies).

The links people make between Baclofen and phenibut are strenuous at best in my opinion, they have very different mechanisms of action although clearly withdrawal from one can be mitigated by usage of the other.

'The possible mechanism involved in the induction of catalepsy and in the inhibition of the traction response by baclofen is discussed on the basis that baclofen, by inhibiting the firing of the nigrostriatal and mesolimbic DA neurons, reduces the release of DA and thereby produces a functional lack of DA at postsynaptic DA receptor sites with resultant induction of catalepsy and inhibition of the traction response. Further, the hyper-responsiveness to methamphetamine and apomorphine is explained on the basis that, as the postsynaptic DA receptors are acutely deprived of their transmitter, following baclofen pretreatment, they become supersensitive to the DA agonists.'

(13-09-2016, 09:42 PM)YepYupYay Wrote:
(08-09-2016, 08:24 PM)acetlyblue Wrote: Still think its sleep enhancing effects are down to its GABAb activity rather than Calcium channel blocking, Baclofen has virtually no Calcium blocking activity yet is very good at sedation. Also a fair percentage of users report no Dopaminergic activity so its acting slightly differently on different individuals. I started at 1.5G and despite virtually weekly use since tolerance has rose to only 2.5G to gain the initial feeling, so that too is probably variable to a greater or lesser degree. I do find a fortnight off does enable me to reduce to 2G with an enhanced effect but with a 6-7 day gap between doses tolerance rises only very slowly.

Wouldn't like to be taking Pregabalin daily, i feel my health would soon suffer but as an occasional recreational treat very little touches it in the 'out of it' stakes.

Quite probable, it still has affinity for GABAb but 10x as much activity in terms of calcium channel blocking.

What is very interesting is that Baclofen has blocking effects on dopamine firing which is why it is implicated in reducing cravings in drugs which primarily are reinforced via dopaminergic action such as cocaine and nicotine, although from the papers i read it does not appear to be earth shattering in the way that naltrexone may one day prove to be for functional alcoholics (if it hasn't already? 78% success rate according to recent studies).

The links people make between Baclofen and phenibut are strenuous at best in my opinion, they have very different mechanisms of action although clearly withdrawal from one can be mitigated by usage of the other.

'The possible mechanism involved in the induction of catalepsy and in the inhibition of the traction response by baclofen is discussed on the basis that baclofen, by inhibiting the firing of the nigrostriatal and mesolimbic DA neurons, reduces the release of DA and thereby produces a functional lack of DA at postsynaptic DA receptor sites with resultant induction of catalepsy and inhibition of the traction response. Further, the hyper-responsiveness to methamphetamine and apomorphine is explained on the basis that, as the postsynaptic DA receptors are acutely deprived of their transmitter, following baclofen pretreatment, they become supersensitive to the DA agonists.'

Oh and P.S. - I wish I hadn't abused it over two weeks when I first found it. I think it's truly one of those once in a lifetime potential miracle drugs for anxiolysis, mood improvement, feelings of wellbeing, social motivation and lack of sedation but BY GOD are the withdrawals unforgiving if used daily and in high amounts.

Literal borderline psychosis, despite tapering. 'Browsing' imaginary BBC news stories, YouTube videos and various texting messaging/social media apps on the surface of my closed eye lids for 7-8 hours only to realise every few seconds that what I was reading was unintelligible nonsense and utter gobbledygook in what I can only presume was my mind's attempt to sleep and/or some sort of REM rebound. Horrifying yet a beautiful illustration of what the mind is capable of, in a way.

Fortunately my withdrawal lasted two weeks at most with no PAWS. Sadly the same can not be said for GABAa agonists/PAMs.
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