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Making blends on a small scale
#21
Just to chuck my 2 cents in seeing as I haven't commented in an age.

I haven't smoked synthetics in about a year now but used to be a heavy everyday addict and I always found that blends made with damiana worked better i.e you'd get more baked using less chemical, not sure why, the only thing I could ever think of was that it seemed to burn hotter. The taste is most definitely an acquired one though.



Oh and Amazon also has reagent grade acetone.
Peace

SlowandFastandSlow
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#22
That's interesting about damiana. I have had someone telling me they get a greater hit from things if they include turmeric leaves in the mix. My brief research on the subject indicated that turmerin is often used as a carrier to get things across the BBB. I understand black pepper is also capable.

I have no idea if either of these work in a blend, just mentioning the anecdotal data here.
'The trouble is, we think we have time."
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#23
AiwassT. believe me , i just logged in to ask about flavours and you 've already answered my questions. I really appreciate your help. Your replies have been eye opening...!
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#24
Greetings @ Heizenberg

I'll sound a note of caution about your proposed strength, even noting that you have tolerance and are seeking high potency. MAB-CHMINACA was one of the first ultra-potent synthetic noids (leading to some hospitalisations as people who thought they knew what strength they wanted discovered they were mistaken). I'm not directly acquainted with it, but from what I can see I'd expect it to be active at a range of 25 to 50 *micro*grams; that is to say you should get 20-40 'hits' per milligram.

Your 70mg, therefore, should be good for a couple of thousand hits/drags/tokes, or, roughly speaking, 100-200 joints. You're talking about an amount of substrate that's more suited to 10-20 joints, on the average. I can't put a good estimate on how you roll or the impact of your tolerance, but this is likely to be a SERIOUS mistake.

This would result in 3.5mg - 7mg of MAB-CHMINACA in the typical spliff. The fraction of that which you might ingest *from a single toke* could already be a significant (and dangerous) multiple of what you intended; 350 micrograms is a lot already. This needs sense-checking.

I'm not looking to scare you off the idea. However, we're a harm reduction forum first and foremost; I'll be happier to discuss flavourings and substrates once the matter of dosing is ironed out.
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#25
Magick i'm honored by your concern. 
 You're absolutely correct here , how can I be thinking flavouring, since the initial potency is hospital high.
  Out of 1gram of spice I make 35 - 40  cigarettes. Each one is 12cm high but the ratio tob./spic. is big. I put a little "line" of herb along the tobacco and I get a really strong "head-hit". It has always been like that. Maybe the ones produced around here , were always potent enough to give 40 cigs out of 1g. with a good head effect per cigarette, so you wont feel/need to put more spice next time (unfortunately I cannot tell how many "inhales" a cigarete gives). The only problem is, I've never tried something that lasts over 30-40 minutes max. ( you need to roll all the time )  
  I really had no idea that MAB-CHMINACA is so "extreme" in comparison with the 5F-AKB-48 in your recipe. As you describe, 0.001g=1mg=1000μg of MAB-CHMINACA is a big quantity for 3g of spice and supposing I cannot count below 0,001g (1mg)  how am I going to see correct μg dosages ? I suppose I'll have to increase my desirable result from 3g of spice to something that 0,001g of MAB-CHMINACA (my minimum) wont make potent as hell. I found it tricky  to "sepperate" 1mg of powder "by eye" .Even when seperating it to 4 parts with a razor , I wasn't sure that there's 250μg in each one. 
  Does the base (initial herb) has anything to do with how the chemical is absorbed by it? I mean, would it be the same thing (at potency scale) applying MAB_CHMINACA to musrhmallow leaf or applying it on Mugwort/Wormwood or Spearmint or ..etc (I repeat, at head affection per inhale ratio) 
  Many many thanks for all the warnings,concern and time. Its been more than educative. Can you give me an estimate on how many/much microgramms of MAB_CHMINACA I should use for bathing 3g of spice? (350μg was for that i am asking?)

Is there any difference between aceton 99.9% pure and 100% ? Pharaceutical goes till 99.9% , i've found some ebay nail polishing removers claiming to be 100%, but are they trustworthy ? Which one should i prefer?
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#26
How you plan to use it is always useful data, too :-)

At 25mg of blend in a spliff, you will indeed want a stronger blend than most. My above hypothesis was based on the potential for dosing it in line with what one might do with natural cannabis, which might not taste at all pleasant but is the sort of use case that one has to allow for. For what it's worth, most of the "overdose" cases would be people who packed a bowl with the stuff or sprinkled an eye-balled dose the powdered cannabinoid (yes, people really can be that daft). Apocryphally, I understand that some of the strongest commercial blends of ADB-CHMINACA (same compound, multiple names) were produced at an obscene strength of 10%; that is very definitely 'information not recommendation', though. Consider it as an upper bound on what should be contemplated...

Your understanding of my response goes too far in the opposite direction, arithmetically speaking. The threshold dose will refer to a single inhalation and no tolerance; you can afford to put maybe 20 such doses into your king size paper, as you won't consume them all in an instant. What we can't know is exactly how big you'll want those doses to be based on your individual aims, intentions, experience and tolerance. 

With all the obligatory disclaimers (i.e. the only dose we can guarantee to be safe is none at all), we can reasonably assume that you'll want at least a threshold dose, and that your threshold is not cannabinoid-naive. As such, one might think it reasonable to pitch your blend at the upper end of a threshold dose; you can always sample an even lesser (weighed) amount of your blend for allergy-testing before using it as you're accustomed to. Following that logic, one might look to put 20 x 50μg doses (= 1mg) in each 25mg of blend (derived from a use case of 40 spliffs / gram); that would demand a ratio of 1:24, or 4%. That would imply using slightly more than you initially suggested (reiterating... information is not recommendation); to achieve that, you'd want 120mg in 3g, ergo 120mg to 2880mg of substrate. Your original ratio seems unalarming if you are dosing the finished blend such as to obtain 40 long joints from a gram of spice; I would think it unlikely to meet your stated aims for potency. 

Potency is not inherently bad, as long as it's anticipated and doses are controlled to match. If I'm perfectly honest, the point about dosing being well made, I might add that it does seem quite common for synthetic cannabinoid doses, with tolerance, to scale to 4-5x threshold doses. The general reaction to 10% blends, across the English-language drug forums, was "F$%&ing hell, I wouldn't go above half that.", and I would echo a similar view, but at the same time, a 10% blend in the hands of an informed user with a milligram scale does not worry me more than a 5% blend in the hands of a kid with a bong (water pipe). As such, and again, I'm not positively recommending it, I might be tempted to think that if, relative to my particular use case, a 2% blend would appear likely to provide the low end of threshold doses (1/5) and a 4% blend the upper end of threshold doses, 10% being the obscene end of the range, perhaps I'd infer something about where a 4/5 should lie among such a range of values. I might even make my blend accordingly, perish the thought. If I did, however, I'd also take the view that four fifths of someone else's idea of insanity (objective or not) might prove to be more or less than I wanted. Therefore, if I were going to assay such a concoction, I'd perhaps start with an allergy test using a few milligrams of the blend, massively diluted. 5mg of an 8% blend would (if reasonably homogenised) contain ~0.4mg of active compound, which would go in with enough tobacco to be content that I weren't going to smoke 10cm of spliff in fewer than ~20 drags. That would ensure that the initial assay (first lungful) used only a fraction of a milligram of the blend; whilst even this does not guarantee safety, there are relatively few compounds that are profoundly toxic to humans at such infinitesimal doses, so it's a sensible practice if unsure of the potency (or indeed the identity) of a compound.

Concerning which substrate you use, I don't know the first thing about differences in absorbency, if any, sorry. It's viable with most, and probably no gustatory delight with any. I'd suggest that marshmallow leaf and raspberry leaf are among the front runners, spearmint also works well. I'd have more caution towards anything psychoactive in its own right; damiana and wormwood are intoxicants in their own right, and for the same reason I'd avoid passiflora, skullcap, and so on. Your concerns over substrates, concentrations etc. also begs the question whether you actually want to prepare it on a herbal substrate for smoking, i.e. as 'spice', or whether it would be as expedient to prepare it as a c-liquid and vape it in an electronic cigarette. If that appeals, niamh has a thread on making c-liquids at https://www.ukchemicalresearch.org/Threa...-c-liquids.

Prefer pharmaceutical grade acetone, and indeed that is 99.9%. Your skepticism for 100% pure anything is well justified. In practice the "100% pure" acetone will often be the same thing, but when sold for nail polish remover, no-one cares if it's the 99% industrial/cosmetic grade. If you're using 12ml / 9.4gm of acetone (which would seem about right) to deposit 120-240mg of a compound onto a substrate, you don't really want ~94mg of potential added impurities from the solvent.
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#27
Hello people.

Using your knowledge, instructions and warnings, I hope we burned the less potential brain tissue we could. Although, I believe it worh it cause we had some serious information on different noids and herbs one can find nowadays. I am sharing this to the society as this society guided me on how to experiment with noids in the first place.

The teas I used were Damiana, Marshmallow, Mullein, Mugwort and Wormwood.
While the noids I experimented were NM-2201, 5F-AKB48, MAB-CHMINACA, MMB-CHMINACA and 5F-ADB. I also included a couple of biological and edible ess. oils [Geranium and Velvet Rose] (about 16€ per 5g) I realised afterwards why its so expensive.

HERBS:
Mugwort and Wormwood were a no go. They are both full of "woodish" small branches and they both have an uneven form which makes it too difficult to spread the noid evenly upon them. They are also too heavy (in gr) . 1g of wormwood or mugwort occupies about 1/4 of space that 1g of Marshmallow does. If I were wholesaling I would use one tiny pinch of unwashed Mugwort or Wormwood in each pack to bring the weight of it to 1G (saleable pieces) so that could save me some noid and herb by the end of the day and no one would blame me for giving less quantity per pack. Since that's not my interest I experimented most of the time with damiana and marshmallow.
Damiana has an amazing taste when smoked and it feels like "transmiting" the noid to the receptor instantly! It's heavier (in gr) than marshmallow and it might be a bit trickier to spread evenly with a spoon or in the stirring process before that. An issue I had with damiana was that I was unable to maintain its "leafy" form after washing and stirring and pressing. Most of the times final blend ends up more "powederish". I believe that issue was overcome by adding some marshmallow in my blend which some how "protects" damiana from crushing when pressing or stirring it.
Marshmallow has a great form. It is the lightest tea I've used, which means, a G of marshmallow will occupy about double the space damiana occupies. Noids seem to spread totaly even on that herb quite easy. The only thing with marshmallow is that it tastes like smoking a newspaper. That's why I combined my final blend 700g of damiana with 200g of marshmallow to get the desired 900g. I keep trying to create 1G of final kush so I can keep track and compare quantities of noid on the same amount of tea each time.
Mullein was weird. It has a smooth form and it is mostly out of bigger flat green leaves which made it a bit diffiult to experiment with. I also didnt like it when it burns and didnt experiment much with it.

All of the herbs smell like tea at the first place. Damiana might have a slight smell related to mint. After processing, herbs smell nothing at all except damiana which retains a tiny essence.

CANABINOIDS:

As I mentioned, I roll about 30-35 king size joints out of a G of final blend, so quantities you are about to see were successful for my kinf of use. I really dont see why roll less than 35 joints out of a G while you can. You prefer smoking and tasting tea instead of tobacco??? You can get the same μg of noid per inhale in a 0,030 g of final kush joint as in a 0,200 g of final kush joint. Why smoke and waste all that tea. I believe while herbs are smokable they aren't meant for smoking.

NM-2201 : Ok that's really mild. I had 100mg of powder spread on 900mg of damiana. I had to make a 0,060g of final blend king size joint in order to feel something. I couldnt tell wether cb1 or cb2 was affected. I cant say I was high but I had a slight relaxation mood. I'd say its a CBD relevant. I didn't really wanted to crank the powder amount higher cause I had a taste of its effect and it wasn't what i was looking for.

5F-AKB48 : Quantities I used are 100mg noid on (700+200)mg damiana + marshmallow and a tougher one 150mg of AKB on the same amount o tea. This noid has the worst in vitro characteristics. It smells like hell and after it gets wet you will need to rub your vials and plates with a metal wire sponge for half an hour to remove the remains. It hits the CB1 almost instant with a good high feeling. Not too strong , not too mild. Lasts quite long but not like MAB-CHMINACA long. A 120mg on 880mg of herb blend could satisfy your daily joints while one can smoke out of that G for 3-4 days before it finishes.

MAB-CHMINACA : If you wanna play PUBG for the next month without a break and after that, see the Gotham series in one week that's your salt. 70mg of MAB in 900mg of damiana. (or 700+200 dam. marsh. ..but still 70mg of MAB) was my quantity. Its an easy to manipulate white powder with no smell and it solves pretty well. (if i see remains not solving I add about 1ml of acetone) The effect is not instant. It builds up till the first 5-6 inhales. Once you are there dont expect to feel "unMABed" until 24 hours have passed. Its lasts really long for a canabinoid. While its active effects last 30 -45 mins and you will then roll another one, you will be feeling it in your organism the whole next day. While I overdosed my self with all the noids, this I never had more of 75mg on 900 mg blend. Its active effect is strong and makes things (games, series, sex etc) a bit more interesting. I hate sharing overdose experiences for fun. They are caused intentional and with my whole self disagreeing with it. It's the only way I can have actual results ,note thresholds and share them with you for scientific and altruistic purposes.

MMB-CHMINACA : Opticaly has no affinity with MAB one. It is not a thin powder, its a yelowish one, it smells and has amazing in vitro characteristics. It disolves immediately giving a crystal clear acetone mixture. I also used 70mg on 900mg of tea. Effects are instant and a bit similar to MAB while you feel your head a bit lighter. It still lasts long but you do not feel affected the other day. I feel that disolving 60 or 50 mg in the 900 mg blend might give me a bit more desirable result. As with MAB you cant go party if CHMINACA runs through your blood and your receptors.

5F-ADB (5F-MDMB-PINACA) : Best noid out. No flaws. There must be 2 kinds of it out. I came to that conclusion cause the same vendor was able to sell them both as 5F-ADB ( I also realized that later) and told me he produces 2 kinds of it. 5F-ADB (a) is a totaly yellow substance. Its super sticky and has a perfect crystalic form. It smells (not bad) and it solves perfectly before even stirring the mixture. 5F-ADB (b) is a pinkish powder with no smell at all. Not so sticky and extremely solvable. Both have the same crazy effect with the second having the advance of being smelless. Do never try more than 70-80mg of this one on 900mg of kush. You dont want build up tolerance on that quickly.
An overdose will have you smoking NM2201 or nothing for a month, in order recover your CB1s. Your daily smoker should be out of a pack of a G (900 mg kush 50-70mg ADB). You get more than high with this. When laying it over damiana you cannot imagine how instant it affects you. Except the great high it gives you , you keep having a sense on your skin that everything seems lighter and somehow wet. You feel like you weight like a leaf and that your head isnt stuck in the rest of your body and it simply flows above your neck. The super effect lasts for about 10 mins while the euphoric effects about 30 mins. Know that if you get tollerant at this, no canabinoid out will be able to "speak" to you for at least a week. If MAB and MMB is active at 50μg/inhale and more, this might be at 40 or 30 It is definatelly more active than anything else i've experimented with.

OVERDOSE :
Overdosing is necessarily bad thing. It doesnt feel super high when overdosed. You a have terrible migrane and you feel like you're living the last week of your life. You feel very little high and you have a constant guilt and regret that you did something bad to your self. Trust me its psycotic,terrible and lonely and you need an at least mature personality to manage out of it. It lasts a week. What actualy lasts is the incapability of feeling high whatever you smoke, where you feel like "malfunctioning organism" and you have a lack of energy and lust. There's no need of someone overdosing himself as all the information one can extract from an overdose is contained in this post. I've realized something amazing while experimenting. In some super potent noids as 5F-ADB and MAB-CHMINACA the less noid you use on the same amounty of tea , the most strong it affects you. For example, I wash 900 mg of damiana with 100mg of ADB and 65mg in the second wash. The 65 is going to give me a strong right head while the 100 is going to give me something weird. Maybe some migraine and you re not able to tell what exactly you feel. While I am not a chemist I have a slight feeling that in a molecular level the brain receptor can "handle" a specific amount of indazoles. If you "spray" the CB1 with more than that amount (threshhold) it somehow malfunctions / "breaks" and you dont feel high but almost overdosed WARNING: As I mentioned before, all the numbers/quantities I am refering to , is for rolling 30-35 king size joints out of a G. Ergo -> 0,030g - 0,050g of product per cigarette. If you "cook" with my numbers and try a 50-50 tobacco-kush , you better have an ambulance stand by your house.

ESSENTIAL OILS :
Unfortunatelly no herb has an aroma. They all smell like teas. Damiana might have a slight essence but its definatelly not a characteristic smell or aroma. Even if you wash mint or spearmint (which are really unpleasant at smoking, bad taste) you wont get the desirable characteristic smell that your daily smoker needs to have. Trust me it is really really difficult to find something edible,smokable and tasty at the same time.( mostly you spent 15EU on a 5ml essence which had no tester and you dont even know what you're buying) You will be shocked with the quality of biological edible essential oils. For the first time in my life, the exact same thing my kush smells , the exact same thing I FULLY taste in my esophagus or the back of my tongue. They are really thick. I am going to count a drop of the oil in gramms and not in litres cause it's used in tiny quantity and it helps making calculations. Use 1 drop of that oil for each 5 gramms of kush you want to wash. One drop of every ess. oil weights exactly 0,030g. (the droper lets that amount of oil to release per drop) (dropers are universaly same) (Droper: the tip of the oil vial that lets one drop out). I had that drop in my initial noid - aceton solution so it solves and lies evenly upon my 5 G of herb. Do not use more than one drop in 5G cause the taste is going to be badly intense. My purpose here was , opening a bag of product in the level of my chest and the essence can get into my nose.(no unflavored blend was able to smell like that) I've used geranium and velvet rose. Everyone tried it was more than excited. When I used strawberry and bubblegum oil (it wasnt bilogical) while the kush smelled great, when they burn they give you a terrible burnt taste instead of the biologicals that give you their full taste. The average noid user will prefer the unflavored kush. A flavor tho that hits your smell sensors nice, it might psycological addict you more than the tasteless one. Sometimes you need to cover the noid smell cause its too intense and you have to use an edible biological essential oil. I wish I could find damiana ess. oil and wash damiana with it. I would appreciate if someone knows a way to split a drop in parts. I usualy have the drop on my scale's pan and pour out of it the smallest amount i can in my acetone mixture.

I believe this post was a help to the society. I will be more than happy if you correct me in wrong assumptions or thoughts. The same exact objects I describe in the same exact amounts might have total different effects and results in different individuals. Those are experiments and experiences of and on our brains and receptors , your own might be totaly different. (psycologicaly & organicaly) This community helped me when i seeked guidance and that's why i gave it some time on composing this post. Yet , one could write an encyclopedia on noids, since same receptors (in seperate individuals) are bind in different ways in the same canabinoids (some peoples' sensors are not even bind) I believe this is the first post on the internet that contains some info about latest noids in the same place.

Be safe
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#28
Hi Heizenberg, yes, lots of herb sellers have a horrible habit of not taking the leaves from stalks and apparently throwing the whole thing through a shredder, so we end up with sharp, angular twigs in the mix. Irritating.

Anyway, good for you for returning and giving this report. Often folk simply take information without giving anything back. Its nice to see you took the time to return something of value.

Have a rep.
'The trouble is, we think we have time."
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#29
Have another
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