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Apppreciate peoples genuine thoughts on this please
#31
(22-11-2014, 09:30 PM)Pseudo Wrote: I think if you're serious about helping nullify the effects of drug use then you'll know it takes more than some 'kit' which you use as a one of. Seems like a money making venture really. 
'Ok you drug users who understand your drug use may have a negative impact on your health,heres a kit to balance that back up! You're welcome.'
Bollocks.
Plus too much 5HTP with stims can cause serotonin syndrome. People buying the kit may just think its ok to eat loads of 5HTP and really,its not. In fact the opposite is true.

5HTP and stimulants is not a risk factor for serotonin syndrome as far as I'm aware.

Serotonin syndrome is caused by a very specific thing: Excessive levels of serotonin (5-hydroxytryptamine) in the brain. In order for 5-HTP (5-hydroxytrptophan) to be converted to serotonin, it has to be decarboxylated, which happens via an enzyme called Aromatic Amino-Acid Decarboxylase (AADC). The rate-limiting effects of AADC make it very unlikely for 5-HTP to be a cause of serotonin unless the brain is unable to transport serotonin back into storage vesicles effectively or excess serotonin cannot be broken down. The two types of medication that do this are SSRIs and MAOIs respectively. Plain stimulants sometimes have mild MAOI activity via competitive inhibition (i.e. amphetamine is broken down by MAOI, which means that some amphetamine is bound to MAOI enzymes making them temporarily unavailable for 5-HT to bind to. This is unlilkely to be an issue unless massive doses are involved, in which case there's likely to be more pressing concerns that serotonin syndrome.

Note that medical information about 5-htp does not warn against combinations with stimulants: http://www.drugs.com/mtm/5-htp.html

Quote:Do not take 5-hydroxytryptophan without medical advice if you are using any of the following medications:
  • an antidepressant;
  • carbidopa;
  • narcotic medicine; or
  • cough medicine that contains dextromethorphan (DM).

I'd also add some other NMDA antagonists (AKA dissociatives) to the above list. Specifically, methoxetamine and, (more relevant here), ephenidine, but maybe others. Of the narcotic medicines, Tramadol is likely to ba particularly scary.

It's not that I think people should combine stimulants and large doses of 5-HTP, but it's unlikely to present any real risk of serotonin syndrome as far as I can tell (but conflicting evidence is always welcome).
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#32
Quote:Roll-Pak is the latest in harm-reduction for the careful individual who not only wants to have a safer experience, but also reduce the possibility of long-term harm.  With festivals and raves bringing thousands upon thousands of excited people every year, the demand for a nutritional supplement that helps keep us safe and performing at our best at all times has never been higher.  Our proprietary blend has been carefully crafted to help the people of the fastest growing entertainment movement in the world, party safer.

Site has expired. How does it prevent long term harm? If they make the claim they have some proof I imagine.

The demand for a nutritional supplement is probably low, even when people really should have some nutrients, having any sort of food after lengthy binges reduces comedowns considerably.

To me this looks like they saw a niche, made up some bullshit, put some chems in something edible and dreamed up a price before probablt doubling it.. Maybe some of those things do help, to some degree, sometimes but when you're already monged and in need of food, liquids and sleep, could this be shown to be more effective than a mars bar?
"To fall in hell or soar angelic you need a pinch of psychedelic".
Humphry Osmond to Aldous Huxley (in a book)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxGqcCeV3qk
Reply
#33
(13-09-2015, 10:54 AM)niflheim Wrote:
(22-11-2014, 09:30 PM)Pseudo Wrote: I think if you're serious about helping nullify the effects of drug use then you'll know it takes more than some 'kit' which you use as a one of. Seems like a money making venture really. 
'Ok you drug users who understand your drug use may have a negative impact on your health,heres a kit to balance that back up! You're welcome.'
Bollocks.
Plus too much 5HTP with stims can cause serotonin syndrome. People buying the kit may just think its ok to eat loads of 5HTP and really,its not. In fact the opposite is true.

5HTP and stimulants is not a risk factor for serotonin syndrome as far as I'm aware.

Serotonin syndrome is caused by a very specific thing: Excessive levels of serotonin (5-hydroxytryptamine) in the brain. In order for 5-HTP (5-hydroxytrptophan) to be converted to serotonin, it has to be decarboxylated, which happens via an enzyme called Aromatic Amino-Acid Decarboxylase (AADC). The rate-limiting effects of AADC make it very unlikely for 5-HTP to be a cause of serotonin unless the brain is unable to transport serotonin back into storage vesicles effectively or excess serotonin cannot be broken down. The two types of medication that do this are SSRIs and MAOIs respectively. Plain stimulants sometimes have mild MAOI activity via competitive inhibition (i.e. amphetamine is broken down by MAOI, which means that some amphetamine is bound to MAOI enzymes making them temporarily unavailable for 5-HT to bind to. This is unlilkely to be an issue unless massive doses are involved, in which case there's likely to be more pressing concerns that serotonin syndrome.

Note that medical information about 5-htp does not warn against combinations with stimulants: http://www.drugs.com/mtm/5-htp.html

Quote:Do not take 5-hydroxytryptophan without medical advice if you are using any of the following medications:
  • an antidepressant;
  • carbidopa;
  • narcotic medicine; or
  • cough medicine that contains dextromethorphan (DM).

I'd also add some other NMDA antagonists (AKA dissociatives) to the above list. Specifically, methoxetamine and, (more relevant here), ephenidine, but maybe others. Of the narcotic medicines, Tramadol is likely to ba particularly scary.

It's not that I think people should combine stimulants and large doses of 5-HTP, but it's unlikely to present any real risk of serotonin syndrome as far as I can tell (but conflicting evidence is always welcome).

I only have personal experience to go on,with 2 people,one being me.There were no other factors involved.Maybe we're both just weird however the fact that it was two of us may suggest others might also be the same kind of weird.I've never read about any of this in great,scientific depth however the sweating,headache,vomiting, rapid heart rate and slightly dilated pupils was enough to make me think that was the problem.Also once most of that has calmed down I had something that almost felt like restless leg syndrome.I had a really horrible night.There were no other factors involved and it hasn't happened again.
Just as well I never gubbed any tramadol by the look of things!
“"If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?”said Alice
Reply
#34
(14-09-2015, 12:01 PM)Pseudo Wrote:
(13-09-2015, 10:54 AM)niflheim Wrote:
(22-11-2014, 09:30 PM)Pseudo Wrote: I think if you're serious about helping nullify the effects of drug use then you'll know it takes more than some 'kit' which you use as a one of. Seems like a money making venture really. 
'Ok you drug users who understand your drug use may have a negative impact on your health,heres a kit to balance that back up! You're welcome.'
Bollocks.
Plus too much 5HTP with stims can cause serotonin syndrome. People buying the kit may just think its ok to eat loads of 5HTP and really,its not. In fact the opposite is true.

5HTP and stimulants is not a risk factor for serotonin syndrome as far as I'm aware.

Serotonin syndrome is caused by a very specific thing: Excessive levels of serotonin (5-hydroxytryptamine) in the brain. In order for 5-HTP (5-hydroxytrptophan) to be converted to serotonin, it has to be decarboxylated, which happens via an enzyme called Aromatic Amino-Acid Decarboxylase (AADC). The rate-limiting effects of AADC make it very unlikely for 5-HTP to be a cause of serotonin unless the brain is unable to transport serotonin back into storage vesicles effectively or excess serotonin cannot be broken down. The two types of medication that do this are SSRIs and MAOIs respectively. Plain stimulants sometimes have mild MAOI activity via competitive inhibition (i.e. amphetamine is broken down by MAOI, which means that some amphetamine is bound to MAOI enzymes making them temporarily unavailable for 5-HT to bind to. This is unlilkely to be an issue unless massive doses are involved, in which case there's likely to be more pressing concerns that serotonin syndrome.

Note that medical information about 5-htp does not warn against combinations with stimulants: http://www.drugs.com/mtm/5-htp.html

Quote:Do not take 5-hydroxytryptophan without medical advice if you are using any of the following medications:
  • an antidepressant;
  • carbidopa;
  • narcotic medicine; or
  • cough medicine that contains dextromethorphan (DM).

I'd also add some other NMDA antagonists (AKA dissociatives) to the above list. Specifically, methoxetamine and, (more relevant here), ephenidine, but maybe others. Of the narcotic medicines, Tramadol is likely to ba particularly scary.

It's not that I think people should combine stimulants and large doses of 5-HTP, but it's unlikely to present any real risk of serotonin syndrome as far as I can tell (but conflicting evidence is always welcome).

I only have personal experience to go on,with 2 people,one being me.There were no other factors involved.Maybe we're both just weird however the fact that it was two of us may suggest others might also be the same kind of weird.I've never read about any of this in great,scientific depth however the sweating,headache,vomiting, rapid heart rate and slightly dilated pupils was enough to make me think that was the problem.Also once most of that has calmed down I had something that almost felt like restless leg syndrome.I had a really horrible night.There were no other factors involved and it hasn't happened again.
Just as well I never gubbed any tramadol by the look of things!

What was the stimulant involved? (Discussion of past use of illegals is allowed, especially in a harm reduction context). The symptoms you describe aren't necessarily serotonin syndrome, although I can understand why you'd think so if you were taking 5-htp. Stimulant overdose (high levels of dopamine and norepinephrine) would also fit - in fact the two conditions are difficult to distinguish. My impression is that serotonin syndrome tends to have a longer recovery period, but that's not a lot to go on.

Another possibility might be that the stimulant you were taking was mixed with something that does interact with 5-HTP or was misidentified by the seller. 

It's likely impossible to tell after the fact anyway. And maybe 5-HTP does have an interaction with stimulants under some set of circumstances - alternative explanations seem more likely I think, but it's not out of the question.
Reply
#35
Sounds very similar to what I've experienced hammering amphetamine.
"To fall in hell or soar angelic you need a pinch of psychedelic".
Humphry Osmond to Aldous Huxley (in a book)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxGqcCeV3qk
Reply
#36
(14-09-2015, 01:44 PM)niflheim Wrote:
(14-09-2015, 12:01 PM)Pseudo Wrote:
(13-09-2015, 10:54 AM)niflheim Wrote:
(22-11-2014, 09:30 PM)Pseudo Wrote: I think if you're serious about helping nullify the effects of drug use then you'll know it takes more than some 'kit' which you use as a one of. Seems like a money making venture really. 
'Ok you drug users who understand your drug use may have a negative impact on your health,heres a kit to balance that back up! You're welcome.'
Bollocks.
Plus too much 5HTP with stims can cause serotonin syndrome. People buying the kit may just think its ok to eat loads of 5HTP and really,its not. In fact the opposite is true.

5HTP and stimulants is not a risk factor for serotonin syndrome as far as I'm aware.

Serotonin syndrome is caused by a very specific thing: Excessive levels of serotonin (5-hydroxytryptamine) in the brain. In order for 5-HTP (5-hydroxytrptophan) to be converted to serotonin, it has to be decarboxylated, which happens via an enzyme called Aromatic Amino-Acid Decarboxylase (AADC). The rate-limiting effects of AADC make it very unlikely for 5-HTP to be a cause of serotonin unless the brain is unable to transport serotonin back into storage vesicles effectively or excess serotonin cannot be broken down. The two types of medication that do this are SSRIs and MAOIs respectively. Plain stimulants sometimes have mild MAOI activity via competitive inhibition (i.e. amphetamine is broken down by MAOI, which means that some amphetamine is bound to MAOI enzymes making them temporarily unavailable for 5-HT to bind to. This is unlilkely to be an issue unless massive doses are involved, in which case there's likely to be more pressing concerns that serotonin syndrome.

Note that medical information about 5-htp does not warn against combinations with stimulants: http://www.drugs.com/mtm/5-htp.html

Quote:Do not take 5-hydroxytryptophan without medical advice if you are using any of the following medications:
  • an antidepressant;
  • carbidopa;
  • narcotic medicine; or
  • cough medicine that contains dextromethorphan (DM).

I'd also add some other NMDA antagonists (AKA dissociatives) to the above list. Specifically, methoxetamine and, (more relevant here), ephenidine, but maybe others. Of the narcotic medicines, Tramadol is likely to ba particularly scary.

It's not that I think people should combine stimulants and large doses of 5-HTP, but it's unlikely to present any real risk of serotonin syndrome as far as I can tell (but conflicting evidence is always welcome).

I only have personal experience to go on,with 2 people,one being me.There were no other factors involved.Maybe we're both just weird however the fact that it was two of us may suggest others might also be the same kind of weird.I've never read about any of this in great,scientific depth however the sweating,headache,vomiting, rapid heart rate and slightly dilated pupils was enough to make me think that was the problem.Also once most of that has calmed down I had something that almost felt like restless leg syndrome.I had a really horrible night.There were no other factors involved and it hasn't happened again.
Just as well I never gubbed any tramadol by the look of things!

What was the stimulant involved? (Discussion of past use of illegals is allowed, especially in a harm reduction context). The symptoms you describe aren't necessarily serotonin syndrome, although I can understand why you'd think so if you were taking 5-htp. Stimulant overdose (high levels of dopamine and norepinephrine) would also fit - in fact the two conditions are difficult to distinguish. My impression is that serotonin syndrome tends to have a longer recovery period, but that's not a lot to go on.

Another possibility might be that the stimulant you were taking was mixed with something that does interact with 5-HTP or was misidentified by the seller. 

It's likely impossible to tell after the fact anyway. And maybe 5-HTP does have an interaction with stimulants under some set of circumstances - alternative explanations seem more likely I think, but it's not out of the question.

I'm sorry I'm full of the cold and so incredibly dopey ....... this went on,reducing in intensity,for about 4 days if I remember rightly.The horrible night was cause by my legs,I barely slept because of it.After that I felt more like I had flu than anything but people did comment on the size of my pupils.
The stimulant was 4mmc and it was years ago so legal at the time.I bought it from a guy who imported it and as far as I know it was as pure as the driven snow.
Goodness knows it may have been something else,it just seemed like the most likely explanation at the time.
I certainly haven't taken any more 5htp and I haven't had a repeat of feeling like that and neither has the other person involved.Seems odd though,eh.

(14-09-2015, 01:56 PM)Kompressor Wrote: Sounds very similar to what I've experienced hammering amphetamine.

Nasty innit. (hello xD )
“"If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?”said Alice
Reply
#37
Ah, so we have a terminology issue. That's actually an important thing to come out of this discussion - apparently what I think of as a stimulant is narrower than others might understand the term. To me a plain stimulant is mainly dopaminergic and any serotonin related effects are secondary and comparatively low level. They keep you awake and focused. So amphetamines, methylphenidate and methcathinone all count, but MDMA, 4mmc and methedrone would not. To me these are entactogenic stimulants. 4mmc isn't all the way to MDMA-like activity, but it's closer to it than methcathinone.

So my advice about 5-htp only applies to plain stimulants rather than what we might call stimulants plus. 4mmc is very serotonergic:

Quote:Mephedrone administration caused about a 500% increase in dopamine, and about a 950% increase in serotonin. They reached their peak concentrations at 40 minutes and 20 minutes, respectively, and returned to baseline by 120 minutes after injection. In comparison, MDMA caused a roughly 900% increase in serotonin at 40 minutes, with an insignificant increase in dopamine. Amphetamine administration resulted in about a 400% increase in dopamine, peaking at 40 minutes, with an insignificant increase in serotonin. Analysis of the ratio of the AUC for dopamine (DA) and serotonin (5-HT) indicated mephedrone was preferentially a serotonin releaser, with a ratio of 1.22:1 (serotonin vs. dopamine). 
Wikipedia

So yes, it seems likely you experienced serotonin syndrome which is a likely outcome of combining 5-htp with 4-mmc. And from a harm reduction point of view its probably better to say that some stimulants, especially those that have euphoric effects, may be dangerous to take along with 5-htp.
Reply
#38
(14-09-2015, 03:39 PM)niflheim Wrote: Ah, so we have a terminology issue. That's actually an important thing to come out of this discussion - apparently what I think of as a stimulant is narrower than others might understand the term. To me a plain stimulant is mainly dopaminergic and any serotonin related effects are secondary and comparatively low level. They keep you awake and focused. So amphetamines, methylphenidate and methcathinone all count, but MDMA, 4mmc and methedrone would not. To me these are entactogenic stimulants. 4mmc isn't all the way to MDMA-like activity, but it's closer to it than methcathinone.
I'd agree with that based on the states I've been able to get into on each    extensive research.
"To fall in hell or soar angelic you need a pinch of psychedelic".
Humphry Osmond to Aldous Huxley (in a book)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxGqcCeV3qk
Reply
#39
well saleable idea. but that's not how nutrition & recovery work as far as i'm aware. good luck if they can make it happen.


right. tea, bifta and a whole stack of reading to be caught up with
Reply
#40
(14-09-2015, 03:39 PM)niflheim Wrote: Ah, so we have a terminology issue. That's actually an important thing to come out of this discussion - apparently what I think of as a stimulant is narrower than others might understand the term. To me a plain stimulant is mainly dopaminergic and any serotonin related effects are secondary and comparatively low level. They keep you awake and focused. So amphetamines, methylphenidate and methcathinone all count, but MDMA, 4mmc and methedrone would not. To me these are entactogenic stimulants. 4mmc isn't all the way to MDMA-like activity, but it's closer to it than methcathinone.

So my advice about 5-htp only applies to plain stimulants rather than what we might call stimulants plus. 4mmc is very serotonergic:

Quote:Mephedrone administration caused about a 500% increase in dopamine, and about a 950% increase in serotonin. They reached their peak concentrations at 40 minutes and 20 minutes, respectively, and returned to baseline by 120 minutes after injection. In comparison, MDMA caused a roughly 900% increase in serotonin at 40 minutes, with an insignificant increase in dopamine. Amphetamine administration resulted in about a 400% increase in dopamine, peaking at 40 minutes, with an insignificant increase in serotonin. Analysis of the ratio of the AUC for dopamine (DA) and serotonin (5-HT) indicated mephedrone was preferentially a serotonin releaser, with a ratio of 1.22:1 (serotonin vs. dopamine). 
Wikipedia

So yes, it seems likely you experienced serotonin syndrome which is a likely outcome of combining 5-htp with 4-mmc. And from a harm reduction point of view its probably better to say that some stimulants, especially those that have euphoric effects, may be dangerous to take along with 5-htp.

Thanks to your line of questioning we definitely have a much clearer idea of what may or may not be safe. :)

I personally just go for good foods,plenty of water and green juices.My body is more than happy with all of those things.Almost ironic that you have to take care while taking care.
“"If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?”said Alice
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